France to tax foods "too fat, too sweet, too salty"

[PicBuddy]

Hmmm...... That's a very interesting way of looking at it and pretty I much agree. But I wasn't really suggesting any course of action, such as one chain to adjust prices overall for any reason. What I was pondering is if the eventual result of having more competing products in which the prices were to change for certain types of ingredients even for reasons out of control to anyone. Where the end result was more variety and where taste would also be a factor (less sweet, less salty, etc.). I wasn't really focused on the method or reasoning of the end result, yet how consumer trends might change at that point. If people would select the healthier items if there were any reason at all for the producers to see a larger margin for them. Even for the simple reason of something tasting better where the price didn't go up, yet become comparable to one which is not only healthier but tastes better as well resulting in better sales. Soft drinks come to mind.

Okay here's an example. Dr. Pepper. A lot of people do not know that there is an original that still uses pure cane suger. It is only produced in Waco Texas and they are not allowed to sell it 90 miles outside of Waco. There are reasons for this, which are not political, they are more market controlled, such as a larger company (making a product with cheaper corn syrup) that is 99.9999% of the national market share, being involved. What ended up happening is that while it was only a fraction more expensive, people started to buy it. And they still do. There are even Mom and Pop companies that drive there and transport it all over (some of the time over 90 miles away, so yes, bootleg Dr. Pepper exists!)

There are some reasons why it was forced out of local stores which I won't go into because that's an entirely different story. Yet it's sales took over the cheaper (slightly) version, because it was and is a much better product, and might be better quality. As it's sales increased it allowed the stores to make larger purchases due to increased demand, and as that happened it's price actually dropped BELOW that of the less desirable market share holder. If the current reason that exists that is blocking stores from selling it (which is not political at all) did not exist, we would have a situation of where the market demand forced the better tasting and likely better quality item into the forefront, and the price went down............... And when I have more time, I will try to explain what happened in that situation.

But what we are taking about is an optional food item. I didn't intend to even reference staple food items like beans and tortillas. But those aren't likely covered under "sweeter, saltier" and what have you. Items like that to me are more indulgences, like wine. Something not needed, yet nice to have. And always nicer when it's better quality. Hope that makes sense.

Welp, time to go to the grocery store and try to get back before GOOD EATS!

[Food Network Fan]

But if you make other things more expensive, the staples are going to be all that is left those people can afford to eat. And if they are using their flour, sugar, salt and lard to make something they can afford you have just dissolved your reason to make those things more expensive in the first place. They can make it as fat or salty ore sugary as they want at home. Southern food became what it is now because of people making what they could afford. Cheese doodles and ho ho's didn't exist back in the day when this type of cooking started. It's fat and dried goods that keep for long periods of time and can be bought in large quantities and stretched out to feed a family for months. We have already been where you are suggesting we go again. Some people are still there now.

[bakerman]

I'm not sure if this type of thing would work in America, France has a different culture and view on food in general. Food here is often more processed with more of the bad stuff, for instance when I purchase imported food whether it be from Europe, Asia, or even Mexico, I usually don't have to deal with ingredients like high fructose corn syrup, and partially hydrogenated oils, they are just not used as frequently there. It seems that their processed food is often filled with less engineered "stuff"

I don't think that the mentality of many Americans would be to eat healthier if their favorite junk type food got more expensive, most people will find ways to finance their wants or vises. This doesn't mean that I think that all Americans are stupid, but it is the way that a generation was brought up, where convenience foods were promoted as liberating for the home cook, and people were lead to believe that this food was nutritious, it is just part of our food culture. I do feel a wave of change coming though, I am hopeful.

I think that the best idea is to continue to educate people, and those who really care about their health will have the tools to make better food decisions. I for one am a very thrifty person, but I have made a decision to spend more on food to get better quality stuff, so that I can avoid the items that are damaging to our health, sometimes when I see a bargain, I just have to look the other way because I know deep down that I don't want that stuff in my body. Don't get me wrong, I am not a health food fanatic, I am just trying to do better.

MAC

[Food Network Fan]

I agree. People are going to eat what they can afford or what they are willing to pay extra to have. There are several vices already out there where people seem willing to pay whatever is asked to keep consuming those things. And this very thing has been tried to keep people from buying them and it hasn't worked. But this is food we are talking about, everything from soup to nuts could fall on the bad list with the standard this story seems to be saying needs to be quashed. When we were low on money as a young couple canned soup helped us survive at times and they didn't have the "low sodium" or "low fat" or "low sugar" items at all or rarely back then. So things have changed as the consumer changes their habits. Some things people have to decide to do for themselves, forcing it just makes them seek out different ways to get what they can't buy locally. And with the internet, you could find anything, and a price increase would just make them order from markets who aren't in a place that has that added price, and tons will open online for order that will be more than willing to take the money.

[PicBuddy]

Originally Posted by bakerman

I do feel a wave of change coming though, I am hopeful.

Us too. Yet I think that wave of change is here, and welcome any news which indicates anything in that manner of change, even if only a vague implication of what could cause it to well, go faster..... And in reading my post earlier the grammer was so bad I almost lost track of what I thought might be an interesting conversation by confusing myself... Hehehe

This is probably a situation where we are seeing what we want to see, only because it's of interest to us. Sort of like when you buy a certain type of car, then you notice all of the others like it on the road, where others don't see it. Now, my wife and I are by no means health food nuts. We have one good health food store here, a hard core one, like the ones that started in the 70's. And then we have Whole Foods in Austin, and of course the flagship of elite shopping Central Market in Austin. But if we started being so overboard and picky that we only shopped there, well we'd be eating less to say the least... (They ain't cheep!)

An example is that we have a sandwich and salad chain called Jason's Deli. And it's not much (if at all) more expensive than some of your "yellow banner" sub shops, yet the food is way better quality. If you check the nutritional sheets the products are lower in fat and sodium and you can taste the quality in a wonderful way. And they don't sell one single drink that contains corn syrup. Just a pet pickyness of mine, I just hate how corn syrup tastes and for a long time refused to drink any sodas. I miss the real ones which started to change in the late 80's when corn syrup was subbed due to it being so cheap that it's close to free for the drink makers. This shop here has nice alternatives like Nantucket Nectars (pure cane sugar), Boylans sodas (pure cane sugar), even imported Japanese teas with a small about of sugar or sugar free, which we are very biased to. Now the yellow banner type of sub shop didn't go all the way out of business, but they had to move to a different part of town, well away from the new 'better food" deli. As they were being driven out of business by the place that has the better quality, better tasting and more than likely healthier food. And see, that's what we like to see. (Not the people that had to move, they are nice people and have good subs), but we like to see a wave of the change for the better, where consumers by demand, select the higher quality, better tasting and healthier (less sweet, less salty) foods. As when you have a magic combination like that which starts at a competitive or equal price, people are going to switch demand to improve the food. As then the lower quality food of the same price will either have to lower in price to fill the gap for lesser demanding consumers, or provide better quality.

Thanks for helping me narrow down more what I was trying to say. A wave of change in that direction is nice to see, and we find events that cause it to be of prime interest. Because we love food (or would not be food network fans...) yet we also love variety in the offerings available for our our kitchens and enjoyment.

I'm sure it could go without saying, but just look at all of the drinks on the drink aisles at the grocery store. Sodas, ALL have corn syrup. (Side note, watch the documentary King Corn, it's wonderful). We don't want corn syrup. Not saying that it's bad, but we hate how it tastes and when 90% of the things in the store all have it and you don't want it, that's frustrating. It's almost as if you are not being given a choice in the matter. Yet now we have this new sandwich and salad shop that refuses to carry anything at all with corn syrup in it. BIG CHEER!!!!!!! Now that is advancement in a direction that we appreciate!

[PicBuddy]

Originally Posted by bakerman

I'm not sure if this type of thing would work in America, France has a different culture and view on food in general. Food here is often more processed with more of the bad stuff, for instance when I purchase imported food whether it be from Europe, Asia, or even Mexico, I usually don't have to deal with ingredients like high fructose corn syrup, and partially hydrogenated oils, they are just not used as frequently there. It seems that their processed food is often filled with less engineered "stuff"

I don't think that the mentality of many Americans would be to eat healthier if their favorite junk type food got more expensive, most people will find ways to finance their wants or vises. This doesn't mean that I think that all Americans are stupid, but it is the way that a generation was brought up, where convenience foods were promoted as liberating for the home cook, and people were lead to believe that this food was nutritious, it is just part of our food culture. I do feel a wave of change coming though, I am hopeful.

I think that the best idea is to continue to educate people, and those who really care about their health will have the tools to make better food decisions. I for one am a very thrifty person, but I have made a decision to spend more on food to get better quality stuff, so that I can avoid the items that are damaging to our health, sometimes when I see a bargain, I just have to look the other way because I know deep down that I don't want that stuff in my body. Don't get me wrong, I am not a health food fanatic, I am just trying to do better.

MAC

Well, I was trying to select what to quote there, but I'll just select the whole text, because we agree completely. You pretty much summed it up really nicely there. And yes by all means, not all Americans are stupid, but most don't have the opportunity to know better. I mean, if you take a look at a package of frozen lasagna that has a picture of a white haired motherly grandma cooking in the kitchen with her grand-daughter, it's not hard to want to believe that what is in that package is prepared with the love displayed on the package and with the story that goes along right under the fairy-tale picture. Because Grandma isn't going to dump 780mg per serving of salt in that to ship it out across the country to maintain a shelf life that ensures more profit for her company, regardless of how unhealthy it is to actually eat.

I also (to quote you in part) "don't think that the mentality of many Americans would be to eat healthier if their favorite junk type food got more expensive". I just wonder (and wish and hope and dream) of what would happen if the selection was there to allow people to make better and more choices, without it being more expensive. Just as the sandwich shop real life scenario I've elaborated on above. To get back to the cheese doodle example, oh do I like those... Ya know, the real original orange ones that get all over your fingers and you can't stop eating them. Well, at present the organic and health type version (regardless of cost) are pretty nasty (at least to me)... Hehehe. So there's only one of those. Imagine if there were one lower in sodium (with a shorter shelf life required due to increased demand and customer purchase pattens shifting) that tasted good, were less salty and were not more expensive? Doesn't exist as as consumers we apparently have not created a demand, even if by being 'blind' to the facts. And the list goes on and on and on. Americans really have a very limited selection of foods.

My travels around the world have not been for a substantial period of my life as a whole, but for the last 7 years I have been paying very close attention to the foods in other countries (while there) with I guess it would be fair to call a "jealous fascination".
Some wise traveler once said that if you really want to know more about the country you are in, make sure to always visit the grocery store first. I remember making the same comment to friends in Europe and Asia and I quote "Wow, I really come from a third world country when it comes to OUR food don't I?" (with a smile of course) and I always get the same reaction from those whom have been able to spend time in the US, and it was "Yes you sure do". And I said that as that's exactly what I believe, and they replied the way they did because they honestly agree. And once again, not trying to be political, just making a pretty severe and sad observation.

As consumers, we don't have enough food choices. When you can not find hardly -anything- to drink that tastes decent, that doesn't contain High Fructose Corn Syrup", I would have to say that something is wrong.

It's something that we won't solve here today, but there's certainly value in consumers discussing it. I thought the news article in europe this morning was thought provoking because it has serious implications of something that could cause food producers to find benefits of providing better quality food, hopefully at the same price, with better selection. Yet I agree going into the actual method or surrounding agendas about that "type" of proposal (political) probably don't belong here cause people always disagree on stuff like that. It just really made us think about something that is very interesting to us (my wife and I that is), from a cultural study standpoint right down to our own pantry. Glad to see some very interesting input and opinions about this subject. This is some GOOD READS!

[PicBuddy]

Originally Posted by Food Network Fan

I agree. People are going to eat what they can afford or what they are willing to pay extra to have. There are several vices already out there where people seem willing to pay whatever is asked to keep consuming those things. And this very thing has been tried to keep people from buying them and it hasn't worked. But this is food we are talking about, everything from soup to nuts could fall on the bad list with the standard this story seems to be saying needs to be quashed. When we were low on money as a young couple canned soup helped us survive at times and they didn't have the "low sodium" or "low fat" or "low sugar" items at all or rarely back then. So things have changed as the consumer changes their habits. Some things people have to decide to do for themselves, forcing it just makes them seek out different ways to get what they can't buy locally. And with the internet, you could find anything, and a price increase would just make them order from markets who aren't in a place that has that added price, and tons will open online for order that will be more than willing to take the money.

Suzie, I agree completely with what you are saying here. And I understand that by me posting that article it would be natural to assume that I was for that proposal, but the honest truth is, I don't care what they do in France.... hehehe. What I found interesting is some driving force becoming involved to push food producers towards providing better alternatives and I don't have any interest in even thinking about the political ramifications that could be raised by that article. What I am interested in is -ANY- factor that causes that. And here in the US I don't think we need to be concerned with legislation that would raise tax on foods that contain high fructose corn syrup or too much sodium...

I was wondering (and yes trying to open a discussion) as to what people would do if they had more alternatives to favorite foods if -any- force came into play to offer greater variety based on price in relation to quality in the areas of "less sweet, less salty, etc.".
And not all more expensive. Because as you have mentioned (yes we ate a lot of canned soup too), there wasn't always low sodium available, at all. Now that there is a very extremely limited array, this shows improvement where some factor had to come into play to cause it. I just wonder what other factors have the ability to cause a greater, faster move to more variety (the key), and I suspect it is strongly centered on consumer demand. An area that just perhaps could be chained in place by such a limited choice. It seems to me that it's something that can't be broken out of that easily, because the ability to break out of what's only being offered, isn't really there -because- there's little choice.

That's why I was wondering what people would buy given the choice. And if you do the math on that (yikes, ahem, tax thing,,, SHHHHHH!) ..... That doesn't equate to raising of prices overall. To me, what it does it cause an incentive for the food producers to suddenly have a new market of offering better quality (5.5% tax) or the same (19.6% in some cases). I do believe that the food producers could very QUICKLY figure out how to put less junk in food, sell it for the same price (to remain competitive) yet still offer the other items, and see what ultimately the consumer would pick. I have no idea WHAT would happen. Which is why I thought this may be a good place to ask people, what they would select if they had the choice. One that in most situations is extremely limited or not even there.

I suspect that if you could get fresh peas, you would buy them wouldn't you? Even if they were a little more expensive maybe? (and not because of France!) Hahah! But if you can't get them there's no way for you to vote as a consumer. So you're stuck to frozen. Now if you had the choice (along with all of the other consumers in your area) and you started to buy only fresh (we can all dream of fresh peas always being available!) and the frozen pea sellers with the sodium had to make a change for the better, wouldn't that be a nice thing? But change can't happen if the choice isn't there.

I just think it's a wonderful thing to see anything that sets events in motion to provide a better quality and wider range of food, because here, we have a long long way to go to catch up.

[Chefnot]

Am I to set on my hands while these posts continue? What gives? I need direction

[PicBuddy]

Originally Posted by Chefnot

Am I to set on my hands while these posts continue? What gives? I need direction

Hahah! Well certainly not!

You must have something to add, so just throw anything out there. That's all I feel like typing today. And you ain't even heard the Dr. Pepper Waco story yet. haha.

[Chefnot]

Well of course I could add, I just don't think you are understanding my question. Certainly I wasn't asking you......